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What is a Pie?

 
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We've been wondering - how do you define a pie?

Does it need a crust on the bottom?
what is pie
this one doesn't

(source)

Does it need a crust on the top?
this one doesn't!

(source)

Does it need to be pastry?
what about Shepherd's pie?

source

What about pizza pie?
is this pie?

source
 
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One of my favorite cookbooks has a category "filled things" some are things like dolmas, which I wouldn't call a pie, but I think part of the definition of pie needs to include "something filled with something."  

Is a cobbler a pie? What about an eclair?

There's a reason the staff is asking this, and you'll understand why soon, but we are having a hard time with this concept, it's more complex than you'd think!!

What IS a pie? What is not?
 
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From Merriam-Webster " A: a dessert consisting of a filling (as of fruit or custard) in a pastry shell or topped with pastry or both"

So a dessert specifically unless you follow the other definition...

"b: a meat dish baked with biscuit or pastry crust"

This is a linguistic crisis of the highest culinary order!

I'll love to see what people come up with.
 
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Personally, I see it as something with a 'crust'. On top, on bottom, both, or even a hand-held one - hand-pies, turnovers, Scottish & English meat pies, Stromboli,  calzones, etc. Pizza, pot pie, and quiche also qualify, in my personal 'pie lexicon'. This might seem a bit... odd? But, even with a classic dessert pie, I'll often eat them in hand, if they're firm enough. I struggle with thinking of shepard's pie and cottage pie as a 'pie', for their lack of crust, of some type, and see them as a casserole.

BUT!! My definition of a 'crust' has changed dramatically, since I began this wheat-intolerance-paired-with-keto odyssey, too! I've used  many crisply-cooked things as a crust: meat (including bacon), cheese, potatoes (not keto, but tasty, when I want a carb-up) a few specific veggies, nuts, seeds, and... I feel like I'm leaving out a couple things... And, I still love a crust I can eat in hand, though a softer crust is not necessarily a deal breaker.
 
Pearl Sutton
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Then there's me. I make pie with no crust. I think it's overrated. The filling is the good part. If I put anything it's some kind of crumbs or flakes just to make it dish out easier.

If I eat other people's pie, I generally skip the crust, or eat minimal amounts. I only know one lady who's crust I will happily eat, if all crust tasted like that, I'd eat it. Never met anyone else who did it that good though. Other crusts are just boring cardboard to hold the filling in. I'd just as soon skip it.

So do I eat pie?
 
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Pearl and I would make good pie partners. I mostly like the crust with a little of the filling as flavor, preferably the slightly burned parts.
 
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I'm in between Pearl and Christopher - I like a little crust (think thin dough pizza instead of thick) and I like *lots* of filling. I always make a deep dish pie, and that goes for meat pies as much as desert pies.
 
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Based on the Cube Rule, a pie is a quiche (labelled as  soup/salad with bread bowl in the chart) if it doesn't have a top crust and a calzone if it does.

15_cube_rule.jpg
The Cube Rule of Food Chart
The Cube Rule of Food Chart
 
Nancy Reading
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Carla Burke wrote:Personally, I see it as something with a 'crust'. On top, on bottom, both, or even a hand-held one



Ah! I see I forgot pasties! We call them bridies in Scotland.

scottish bridie pie
Scottish (or Forfar)bridie


Cornish pasties differ in their filling and the design of the crust

traditional cornish pasties
Cornish pasty


I see the main difference being they're made without a dish - mind you so are raised pies traditionally too.
 
Jay Angler
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No time to track down the source today, but it was either one of the TV shows covering historical farming or from a book describing the same. As Nancy says above,

I see the main difference being they're made without a dish - mind you so are raised pies traditionally too.



Yes - and the crust was strictly considered the "container" to bake it in the bread oven. In fact, it was at least implied, if not stated outright, the crust was not eaten. I suspect the crust would have been considered animal feed at least.

I don't recall what the era used to make the crust (or even exactly what era it was), but I doubt it had the quality ingredients that I use in my crusts, like a mix of butter and goose fat, flour, lemon juice and an egg. Eggs would have been very valuable that far back. I recall a British video describing "ancient jobs" that described people climbing down cliffs over the sea with a basket stealing bird eggs. I'm not sure how they could tell if the eggs had already started developing, or if they cared. Apparently the value of the eggs was worth the risk...
 
Christopher Weeks
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If shepherd’s pie counts, so does Frito pie.
 
Carla Burke
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I do love me some good frito pie!! (Frito pie, for those unsure, is a bag of Fritos corn chips, ripped open on the back seam, and pulled open, similar to a bowl, then topped with chili and whatever toppings you like. For me, that would be raw wire onion, shredded sharp cheddar, sour cream, fresh jalapeño, and sliced black olives!)

For anyone unsure of the difference between shepard's & cottage pie, my understanding has always been that shepard's is made with lamb & topped with mashed potatoes, while cottage it's made with beef & topped with sliced potatoes, with the remainder of the recipes being pretty similar. I'm more likely to prefer cottage, on a typical day. But, sometimes, lamb is da bomb!
 
Carla Burke
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Oh! Another pie that's not a pie (but I love!) is Boston Cream Pie. Two layers of rich yellow cake, filled with rich vanilla pastry cream, and topped (not on the sides) with a thick layer of ganache.
 
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Thirteen posts in and no one has made a math joke. What's this place coming to...?

What about a Russian pirozhok? It uses yeast leavened dough, but can be an appetizer, hearty meal, or a sweet dessert.

Now I'm hungry.
 
Carla Burke
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Hmmm... that, while it looks delicious, reminds me more of a baked version of Chinese steamed dumplings...
 
Nancy Reading
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Dumplngs reminds me of cobblers - does a crust have to be complete?

source

And on the subject of hand held pies, how could I forget samosa?

source

They used to be the birthday treat choice when I worked in Coventry (UK)
 
Christopher Weeks
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Some cross-pollination: I got to talking to my wife about defining pie, and she went to her peeps at Ravelry to see what people thought. You have to have an account to see it, but probably some of you do: https://www.ravelry.com/discuss/remrants/topics/4277748
 
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From the recent favourite Mexican food thread - I think tamales are a sort of Pie!

source

Timothy Norton wrote:A variety of fillings are made and then put on the dough before being rolled/wrapped up

 
Nancy Reading
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Oh my - I forgot sausage rolls!

I thought of this thread over the christmas holidays, as sausage rolls are one of the savory snacks I always make for the holidays.

(So they count as sushi?!)

These ones look rather yummy:
sausage rolls
Picture from recipetineats

I make mine with sausage meat from the butcher, but these pictured are rather up market ones made from pork mince. I don't know why they seem to be dipping them in ketchup though?! Each to their own I suppose.
 
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Pearl Sutton wrote:Then there's me. I make pie with no crust. I think it's overrated. The filling is the good part. If I put anything it's some kind of crumbs or flakes just to make it dish out easier.

If I eat other people's pie, I generally skip the crust, or eat minimal amounts. I only know one lady who's crust I will happily eat, if all crust tasted like that, I'd eat it. Never met anyone else who did it that good though. Other crusts are just boring cardboard to hold the filling in. I'd just as soon skip it.

So do I eat pie?



Since we don't eat starches, I make "pumpkin pie" without the crust. I still call it a pie, but my mom says it's just a custard.

I'm of the mindset that shape matters. If it's pie shaped and is sweet, then it is pie. If you bake it in a pie pan, you have pie.

Of course, all those other things that are baked in a pie crust, like shepherds pie and mincemeat pie are all pies, too. And historically, pies didn't have pie pans--they used the crust as the pan--as a way to hold the ingredients. And, often, those crusts were not tasty and we not consumed by the intended diner (servants ate them, I'm sure, but not the aristocracy the pies were made for). So, if my pie "crust" is just the pie pan holding the material, why can't it be a pie? If it looks like a pie and tastes like a pie, it is a pie.

(Kind of like how pumpkins are just squash that look like pumpkins. If it looks like a pumpkin and is made of squash, it is a pumpkin. If it looks like a pie and is made of pie stuff, it is a pie. )
 
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In Finland we have karjalanpiirakka, which translates into Karelian pie. It's savory and soooooo goooood...

you'll find the recipe here

karelian-pie.png
[Thumbnail for karelian-pie.png]
 
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Nina Surya wrote:In Finland we have karjalanpiirakka, which translates into Karelian pie. It's savory and soooooo goooood...


Thank you for that link - they are sort of open raised pasties with rye pastry. I suspect they have been developed as inexpensive but filling food-lots of possibilities to adapt it too....I think the porridge rice may be what we call pudding rice here?
 
Nina Surya
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Nancy Reading wrote: I suspect they have been developed as inexpensive but filling food-lots of possibilities to adapt it too....I think the porridge rice may be what we call pudding rice here?



I'm not sure. I think pudding rice is thick and puffy? Porridge rice is creamy and sticky. Warm karelian pies with egg-butter ( real butter with mashed cooked egg mixed through it ) is heavenly good :D
 
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  This is possibly the most important thread on Permies - nay, on the Internet. Thank you for raising this urgent topic.

  I have thought an embarrassing admirable amount about this already, and I think that basically you are all right. The basis for my argument is primarily linguistic/etymological. We can start with the word "pie" in its various cultural/historical applications - standing-crust pork pies, pot pies (with only a top crust), shepherd's pie/fish pie with their potato crusts, Cornish pasties, and so on.

  Another word for pie? Tart. Thence, we can consider cognate terms in other languages, like the Spanish torta. A torta can be a cake, but it can also refer to a sandwich. So a sandwich, I argue sincerely, is a pie. It has a crust on top and bottom and contents within, so hardly a stretch. And, of course, a "little sandwich" (or "little cake") in Spanish is a tortilla. Clearly, tacos are pies, as are burritos, enchiladas, quesadillas, etc. Now for Italian. Tortellini are also little pies (makes sense) even though they are boiled and not baked. So that means many Asian filled dumplings and buns qualify, as well.

  Pastel is a Spanish word meaning, approximately, "pastry"; this word was applied to the Puerto Rican dish consisting of a mash of starchy roots stuffed with meat and then boiled in a banana leaf. Pie. From there, tamales are clearly pies. Pastelillos are little pies, and so clearly are empanadas and rellenos de papa.

  Pizzas are pies. Pita is a pie, and a pie-forming word element (like spanakopita, spinach pie). Stromboli, calzone. I would argue that lasagne al forno is a pie.

  We haven't even breached sweets. Mochi are pies, onigiri are pies. Pumpkin pies, pecan pies, chocolate pies, cream pies, Bakewell tart, spotted dick, roly-poly pudding, Jelly rolls, filled doughnuts, baklava, pasteis de nata, cheesecake - the list is nearly endless.

  The connecting element between all of these is the human practice of covering, holding, or encapsulating a non-starch food substance, often of a variety that is difficult to hold, within a starch food substance, frequently (but not always) permitting it to be stored, transported, held, or eaten more neatly or easily. Thumbprint cookies. Sausage rolls. Pot stickers. Toad-in-the-hole. Obleas. Sushi. Hot dogs on a bun. Pain au chocolat. PB&J. Chili cheese fries?

  If you have been touched by this expansive vision of pie, you will be pleased to know that the membership fee for my pie cult is currently reduced to a mere 3.14% of your gross income.
 
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Mason, that was the magic word: tart

https://permies.com/t/101228/RECIPE-Simple-Clafoutis

Is it a pie without a crust?

Or is it something else?
 
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Pie should not be thought of as a substance on a plate or bowl or in your hand, and further the ingredients, sweet, savory, spicy or delicate matter not.  Pie is a state of bliss engendered by the smells, the taste, the clink of silverware and dishes, and expressions around the table of large and small faces and the tacit permission to bend towards over indulgence. The world would be better off with pie before every meaningful conversation
 
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Anne, I would say clafoutis is very much like a sweet toad-in-the-hole. The starch is, in this case, encapsulating and surrounding the non-starch element. So I would not call it "crustless"; all pies seem to have this exterior starch element, but sometimes it's crispety and sometimes (as in steamed or boiled pies) it isn't. I would place clafoutis in the "non-crispety" category. Contrast it, for example, with a frittata, which is truly crustless and therefore a non-pie; the encapsulating element in that case is a protein and not a starch. Likewise, this definition admits American pigs-in-blankets (in pastry) but not British ones (wrapped in bacon).

Clafoutis: pie. Frittata: non-pie because not encapsulated by a starchy food. Yorkshire pudding: non-pie because not filled with anything. Yorkshire pudding after being topped up with delicious gravy: possibly a pie.
 
Anne Miller
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I beg to differ.  I cannot see the clafoutis that I make related to a `toad in a hole`, maybe you have something different?
 
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clafouti

source

(a rather posh) toad in the hole

source


I think I'm with Mason on this one Anne...They look similar. Mind you I've never cooked clafouti to my knowledge, so I was just going off internet pictures.


Ooh a pie fight! - are we allowed?


source
 
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I guess that is the difference in a British something and a French something ...

And to American, AI said:

Usually in America, toad in the hole refers to an egg cooked in the hole cut out of a piece of bread.

 
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I'm not a pie baker...my daughter in law  and grand daughter are excellent though.
For Christmas we were all asked to bring a pie so I decided anything in a pie plate would do.
I lined the plate with some sugar cookies we had been given and the filling was my slightly sweetened raw milk cream yogurt (with a can of crushed pineapple) ice cream...it was accepted as pie and quite delicious!
 
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Anne Miller wrote:

Usually in America, toad in the hole refers to an egg cooked in the hole cut out of a piece of bread.



Ah that would explain it! I guess an egg surrounded in bread could be a pie.....but not like clafoutis, I think we agree!
 
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Usually in America, toad in the hole refers to an egg cooked in the hole cut out of a piece of bread.


This was the first thing I was allowed to 'cook' on my own!

 
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