Hank Fletcher

Paul Fookes wrote:

Hank Fletcher wrote:Your probably not far enough south, but why not plant them and grow your own avocado trees. I toss mine in my compost. Boy, I had a big surprise a couple of months ago when I was out turning the pile. I found I had three or four avocado trees starting to grow. I knew they were avocado trees since the one I pulled up was still directly attached to the seed.

You can grow out avocados in pots.  We have minus 5 to 45 deg C.  Once the tree is 3 or more years old, then you can plant them out.  Before the first frost, cover the tree with some insulation such as wool or roof bats.  Cover the top  but remember to remove the top cover when the sun is up.  Hot water bottles or heated rocks will raise the ground temperature.  Once the tree has sufficient girth, it should survive the cold.  There are even cold tolerant varieties.

Unfortunately, I forgot to water my pots so they went to the great garden in the sky.

Yes, they will grow, at least one year until winter arrives. Let's see, last night I saw 19F, and winter doesn't start for another month.  I know the ones that started won't survive, darn. I do wish they would go in hibernation and then take back off next summer. I wouldn't mind not being able to get them to continue to grow while never fruiting. With the temps around here that won't happen.

Your probably not far enough south, but why not plant them and grow your own avocado trees. I toss mine in my compost. Boy, I had a big surprise a couple of months ago when I was out turning the pile. I found I had three or four avocado trees starting to grow. I knew they were avocado trees since the one I pulled up was still directly attached to the seed. Now if I just didn't live in the northeast. Maybe that is why I say "I want global warming, I want global warming:)" I can't grow much of anything around my place, other than berries, but I sure can grow avocados, at least for one summer:)

I've been playing around with all sorts of ideas over the past several years. It started by building a 48 sq ft temporary room. Was looking to see if I could get myself set up so I could have body heat and stray electricity as my only sources of heating the room. Had it wrapped with R-60, but not the ceiling. After a couple of years I decided it was to big and dropped down to 32 sq ft. This time I put the insulation on top as well. It helped me get closer to the final goal.  It still didn't get me there but it was closer.

Then several years back I saw Paul's posting about reducing your electric heat bill by 89%. I read it and realized I was still sitting in way to big of room, given what I was actually using for floor/ceiling space in the room. I tore the 32 sq ft room down and replace it with a, roughly, 50 cubic ft room. I spent one night in it before moving in with a friend of mine, full time live in caretaking him for 2.5 years. I knew from the one night I slept in it, I didn't like the hammock hang. I needed the 8 foot length, minimum, for proper hammock hanging(I have slept in hammocks full time at home since fall of 2006).

With occasional opportunities to escape and make my way to my house over the 2.5 yr stretch I ended up tearing the room down and putting the 32 sq ft room back up. This time I added more insulation, besides the R-60 rolled insulation, I also took the sheet insulation out of the ceiling above the main room and put it around the walls and ceiling of the 32 sq ft room. I also wrapped the room in plastic from the floor up. Now I was sitting at the closest to real world environment I could hope for, outside of the room. Last winter I checked, with nothing on in the house and me not living there, on the coldest morning of the winter(-8 to -10F) it was 26 degrees on the kitchen sink. This winter on the coldest morning(-20F) it was 7 degrees on the kitchen sink(pretty much covers 90% of the local winter conditions around here). Without taking the room outside I knew I wouldn't be able to get much closer to checking out how warm the room would stay. It held up exceedingly well.

In the past I would get home in the evening and the room would be 36-40 degrees and I would turn on the heat and warm it up to around 60. Now I get home the room is sitting 48-52 and I turn on the light and the laptop and the room warms itself up to 60 within 1-1.5 hours, no extra heat source. By the time I go to bed it will be up to 68-70 degrees. I never used to see much above 64-65, if I could even get it that warm in the past. Now when I wake up in the morning it is usually 56-60 degrees and plenty of times even up around 62-64, with nothing for heat in the room from the time I go to bed until I wake up in the morning. Only my body heat is keeping the room warm. I used to wear a stocking cap all the time, this is the first winter I have lived at the house where I haven't put one on while inside. Several times I have sat in the room with nothing more than a t-shirt on. There is no draftiness, unlike in the past and the floor stays warmer as well.

Prior to this winter I was thinking of putting a compost barrel in the house and trying out the idea of compost heating. I'm glad I didn't since it would have skewed my findings otherwise. Now I am thinking a lot about trying to set up a wood chip pile beside the house and plumb in heat from the wood pile for next winter. I'm wandering if I could get away with heating the whole house with a wood chip pile or not. I know the area where I am looking at putting the pile would give me roughly 5.5-6 feet height before I would get up to the bottom of the window. It would also give me around 7.5-8 feet width between the edge of the house and the edge of the old chimney(right beside the edge of the window). I was figuring something like 3-4 foot deep for the third dimension. I'm figuring since I would be using it as the winter compost pile, for getting rid of human waste and food scraps I would take some of the many window panes I have and build a box over it to keep the snow off to help make it more workable during the winter months. I'm already guessing wood chips would be less workable than regular compost(darn hard to move that stuff around when its frozen).

How do you determine what size pile you will need for heating a given area?

By the way, the current room, I'm using around 1-1.5 kW per day, everything included(laptop, light, heating and cooking). It is amazingly efficient. If I made one big change to the hammock, for the most part, anything above 10F, and maybe even 0F(outside temperature), I could away without any heating system at all in the room. I'm only using a food tray warmer as the heat source as it is. I have it placed right underneath my butt when I'm in the hammock.

The house itself is 468 sq ft, one floor, right now with no insulation in the ceiling throughout the house, other than the 32 sq ft room. I know the walls in the front room(directly connected to the planned wood chip pile location) has probably around R-26 in the walls. The main part of the house, where the 32 sq ft room sits, has insulation, but I'm not sure how much, the floor is uninsulated, other than the 32 sq ft room.

Lif Strand wrote:I'm definitely attracted to low-tech solutions like Hank is experimenting with.  For one thing, they are projects I can do myself and that often use materials I might already have.  Important because going into town for supplies takes a chunk out of a working day just for the travel time.

I'm off the grid so for me there are no electric bills but also I am limited as to what I can do with electricity to heat my house in the winter (at 7000' altitude the winters are below-zero cold!).  My first solution is seal the sources of drafts and insulate, insulate, insulate!  That alone will reduce power consumption for heat.  

Heating an air-leaky, under-insulated house is a lot like heating the great outdoors.  Investing in reducing the need for heat is way less expensive than the cost of heat in the long run.

One more thing to think about, why in the old days did you wrap a potato in aluminum foil before you put it in the oven? In my previous 'room' I wrapped the whole room in aluminum foil. This time, I'm looking at repurposing soda/beer cans. I have probably over 200 I've collected thus far from the roads around where I live. I keep picking up more all the time. I figure cut the tops and bottoms off. Cut them open and lay them out flat and then glue them together into sheets to put up on the walls. They will reflect both, heat and light. Cuts back on the lighting needs as well. No electricity needed to do it. The aluminum cans will be much harder to tear or anything else. Heck I could even use the sheets for roofing material, seriously planning on it if I can get enough cans, 3-4,000 by the time next spring rolls around. I need the new roof and they would work quite nicely.

I didn't get around to adding fuel to the buckets but I'm hoping to here later this afternoon. I did get the photos taken last night, but not sure if there is a way other than through an alternative site for putting them up. I don't have any photo account site from which to link to. I figured I would be able to attach the photos versus having to do them through linking, OOPS. For further information, not totally well demonstrated in the photos, the lid is removed from both cans, and only the top can has the bottom removed. The bottom can still has the bottom intact. I figured it would be better off to do it that way to help force the air out the sides of the can rather than letting the air just go all the way down into the bucket. Granted after seeing how well things heated up rather quickly I'm glad I did leave the bottom in the bottom can.

Rainy days make for a good time to play. So I did. Have had quite a few cans I've collected over the past couple weeks, like well over 100. Decided to educate myself and experiment some at the same time. I started with trying to size a round can down to about 3/4" diameter. Then I got to looking and realizing...

I wanted to try a the 5 gallon bucket, especially since I'm in such a small house anyways, but more importantly the 55 gallon drums were outside and I didn't want to go out in the rain to get a soaked bucket and bring it inside:)

I saw I had numerous, 15+ of the Red Bull small diameter sized cans, smaller diameter than a normal 12 oz pop can. I looked and thought, why not stack a couple of them on top of each other and since the 5 gallon bucket is so darn small, why not just cut holes in the side of the can and forget the side arms altogether.

So I cut off the top of two cans, and the bottom out of one of them. I put them together, friction fit, and found something to temporarily work with in the bottom of the bucket and set them down in the bottom of the bucket. I toyed around with the idea of using a third short 7.5 oz can, same diameter, but after grabbing the heat gun(definitely overpowered/overheated more below) I saw I probably didn't want the extra can.

I proceeded to cut four holes down the two can layout. One hole on each 'side'. So air/heat would be escaping all around the pile, versus one side only. Each hole was space roughly 180 degrees apart and probably around 4 inches apart vertically. Think one can N-S, and the other can E-W holes.

After getting the bottom screen cut out, just used 1/2" welded wire mesh set up on two short pieces of angle iron, I found I could/needed to use some of the other mesh for the top to try to help keep the heat gun from wanting to tip over on me. I got the top piece set up and proceeded to see how well it might work, empty, again it was raining outside and I didn't want to go out and get all wet to gather and overly wet leaves/yard clippings.

I didn't know for sure how much trouble I might get into by using the heat gun versus a hair dryer. I found out pretty quickly I wouldn't need to run the heat gun very long to get the cans to smoke for me, not sure if that was from not having the cans cleaned out or what but they did start smoking on me within 20-30 seconds. I also found with the cans sitting in the middle of the bucket, that within 20-30 seconds the sides of the bucket were already starting to get warm. I quickly realized my original thought of trying to find a non-electronic way of cycling the heat gun(1 minute per hour, or something like that) might be more like 20-30 seconds once every hour. Granted I think after the initial start a fan would probably be the more preferable way, at least for something as small as a 5 gallon bucket.

I did end up putting in an additional brace, the metal ruler from a combination square in between the bucket and the top screen to stiffen up the top screen so it didn't want to sag down into the bucket. I wanted to make sure the plastic of the heat gun would be able to touch the side of the cans.

I think I have a setup I will give a try at later today after things have had a bit of a chance to warm up and dry out. I will also try to grab some photos before and after I load up the bucket with debris and post them tomorrow.

No I didn't drill any holes in the bucket, and now thanks to Matt, I think I will hold off on that idea.

Sorry for yesterday’s post, I finally read the full thread this morning. I copied the thread into a document file yesterday so I could read it this morning, no internet access at home.

Matt has given me an idea that might help solve several key component details of this design idea.

First, a few things need to be made clear. How big of a pile do you really need? Obviously if Jack was only filling the bucket 40% full, then he was only using around 20 gallons. Yes, the bigger the pile the higher the output and vice versa. I guess it all depends on how much output you need, aka how much BTUs you need to heat the room/house in question.

Second, is there a way of turning the pile, without actually turning the pile? Don’t jump to conclusions, follow along down to points 3&4.

Third, what does turning the pile actually do for the pile? Does it keep it from clumping up? Does it matter if it clumps up or not? Does turning the pile aerate the pile? Is it the aeration that matters or what matters most in turning the pile in keeping the pile working and keeping it producing the temperature output?

Fourth, is there a way to get the aeration in the pile without turning it? Yes, this sounds stupid, but my ideal answer, is stupider than anything I read thus far.

Take a vertical drum, or back up to the first point, a 5 gallon bucket(sorry I’m not an artist, especially not on a computer), remove the lid and keep it off. Sit it upright, not laid over. Put a window screen down in the bottom of the bucket set up on a couple pieces of angle iron/copper piper(something that won’t compost) to keep it up off the bottom of the bucket. Maybe use some welded wire mesh right below the screen to help give some rigidity to the screen, so it doesn’t want to slump down to the bottom of the bucket/drum. This is how any liquid will leak down and not be kept in the pile to help keep the pile from clumping???(please clarify on this point, I’m not really sure what causes the clumping). You can put in a drain off valve, so you can easily drain off the moisture any time it becomes necessary.

Put in the wood pellets/chips/leaves/yard waster, etc.

Make up a simple PVC manifold. A 1.5-2 inch PVC pipe with ‘t’’s stuck on it, with the side arms sticking out of it, making it look like a paddle wheel. Drill holes in both the down tube and the side tubes, aka to provide the aeration from the computer fan or better yet, hair dryer. Using a 1-2 liter pop bottle top, depending on whether you are using a computer fan or a hair dryer, aka the size of the opening from the blower device in question, take a clothes iron and melt the plastic around the fan/dryer to give it a fairly airtight seal. Put the other end down into the PVC pipe, aka forced air injection. Turn on the fan/dryer and let it blow air throughout the pile on set intervals.

Using a dryer will be blowing in warm air, which could be controlled through a thermostat. When the pile gets to cold it turns on the dryer, otherwise it stays off. Not only is this helping to push air through the pile to keep it aerated and working, but now it is also making sure the pile stays warm to keep the pile working. It is also keeping the excess liquid nice and available to be drained off in a friendly manner versus leaking out any standard compost tumbler holes onto the floor in the house. It also provides for no need for rotation because of the way the manifold is set up it provides the oxygen to the pile when you turn on the fan/dryer.

Think something like this, no drawing programs so I’m doing it crudely.

                 Hair dryer or computer fan to inject the heat down the PVC pipe
                     | |
                     | |
|---------------------------------------| screen to keep leaves/chip/pellets from blowing out when air is applied
|                    | |   perforated |
|                    | |       1/2-2”     |
|                    | |       PVC         |
|                    | |                      |
|                    | |                      |
|        ==============         | perforated PVC running sideway through the pile
|                    | |                      |
|                    | |                      |
|                    | |                      |
|        ==============         | perforated PVC running sideway through the pile
|                    | |                      |
|                    | |                      |
|                    | |                      |
|        ==============         | perforated PVC running sideway through the pile
|                    | |                      |
|                    | |                      |
|                    | |                      |
|        ==============         | perforated PVC running sideway through the pile
|                                               |
|--------------------------------------| screen to allow the liquid to run down to the bottom of the bucket/drum
|                                               |
|                                               |\
|______________________________|\ \
                                                   \ \ drain plug to drain off the liquids

The drain plug could also be something as ease a hole in the bottom of the bucket which could drop right down into a container on the floor. This would eliminate any need for any kind of plumbing valve. Also as I mention, in questioning down below(rereading and editing this as I go) you could drill several holes in the sides of the bucket, down below the screen mesh to get rid of the CO2, or is it heavier than air, at which it would be gotten rid because you no have lid on top of the bucket/drum.

A very simple system and can be used in any sized bucket. I say any sized bucket because the post I made in the original thread on ‘Try to say your butt in Europe this winter’ quote/unquote, I don’t have any indoor plumbing. I just crap into a 5 gallon bucket and throw in food scraps as well. I never use any sawdust or anything else to cover it up. I just keep a five gallon bucket lid on top and let it go. Yes, I must fess, I have no sense of taste or smell, and I live by myself, so I would never notice any smell if there were to be any. I do piss in a completely separate container so no liquid goes into the crap bin other than through food scraps. I typically have to take it outside and dump the bucket once every couple of weeks, mostly because of the food scraps, not much crap in it, typically.

The strange thing I have noticed is when the bucket is only a couple of days old, not much food or crap in the bucket, whenever I open the lid I do notice a fair amount of heat coming off the pile, even if it has been 6-12 hours after I last took a dump. By the time the bucket is getting full I don’t notice any heat, even immediately after taking a dump. The real question comes, what am I noticing, the lack of aeration or what? Even a five gallon bucket can provide the heat. Given what I think I may looking at for heat needs within the part of the house I keep heated during the winter I may not be needing much extra heat, using a 5 gallon bucket compost pile, built the way I layout above may provide all the extra heat I need. Again, it all depends on why I am losing the heat in the crap bucket in the first place.

If using a 5 gallon bucket probably you would want to drop down to 1/2-3/4” PVC/copper pipe instead of using 1.5-2” PVC, otherwise the PVC would be taking up too much space. In a 55 gallon drum 1.5-2” PVC would be okay.

Jack please explain a little further your big issue, CO2 and water vapor. Would both of these conditions be eliminated with what I suggest? The water vapor would be turning to liquid and dropping down to be drained off, or would that not happen? I can see both sides of the equation on this matter. I’m not sure about the CO2 though. By keeping the lid off, since you can, since it is a vertical bucket, the CO2 should be able to escape, or is CO2 heavier than standard air, need to remember my old science classes from 30+ years ago, darn it. As I mention above you could put holes between the lower screen and the bottom of the bucket to let any CO2 out that way if it is heavier than air. Heck put some plants down by the bottom of the bucket, they will soak up the CO2.

This idea would completely eliminate the need for rotating the pile, keeping it warm and keeping it aerated. All you have to do is feed it and clean it out.

I will ask for the same information asked for above. How often were you having to clean it out, Jack? Also, I will ask the question, how much fuel were you putting in each day, roughly by weight?

I am writing this on Monday September 12, while at home, so I haven’t read any post beyond Lil’s post about liking the Pineapple pile, which included the photo. If you have answered the question since then I will read when I get online later on today and make this posting.

Thanks for the ideas. It’s opening up a lot of new interesting concepts which I like better than anything else I have been thinking of doing heading into this winter.

PS. Thought an idea while out running, err biking errands a little bit ago. Instead of using PVC I think I will try repurposing all the aluminum cans I have been picking up along the road I’ll make the air duct out of them instead of out of PVC. I don’t have any PVC laying around, but a lot of collected pop/beer cans, actually just picked up another 10 or so while on the ride into the library to get online. I thought I was only going to be grabbing two of them I had seen earlier...boy was I in for a surprise on the ride into town.

Hey Jack,

Gotta question for you. I have threatened myself to do an indoor 55 gallon drum pile this winter. I have been thinking of the idea for several weeks now. I had already started to prep a drum, last year(while living away from the house, caretaking a friend). I drilled the holes in it for standard outdoor compost tumbler idea. How did you handle any liquid removal from the drum when you did the indoor drum idea? I do have two other identical drums which I haven't did anything with as of yet, they are just sitting there waiting to be used. Granted I don't know if they are food grade or not. I got them for free a couple of years ago from the guy I was caretaking, they were at one of his rental properties and a former tenant left them behind when they moved out.

This thread is once again making me think more about the idea and think more about, since I think the drums don't have removal tops, about just how I would go about getting the compost out of the drum and more importantly, out of the house. I am starting to think of making the hole smaller(maybe already small enough) and instead of using a cart for hauling the compost, just use a 5  gallon bucket. You got the ideas flowing right now. Thanks.